Resisting Arrest

[Yareka]

So I'm getting ready to order some resistors this week for the sai and n112 plugs that I"m not using. It seems like these things are cheap and get way cheaper when you order quantity. I'm looking at the 330ohm 10watt resistors and I have a few places I'm looking at ordering from.

I'll be using 3-5 depending on what else I can trick with these...Evap?

Post up if you need a few and what quantity so we/I can place an order later this week.

[Ak-Abe]

i should be elimination my SAI soon i might be interested... :oddeye-hellyeah:
but resistors is something i know little about . Knowing That it will eliminate the check engine light.

[PureEvil]

Ok I'm new to the Mods of a 1.8t what are you guys talking about. LOL

[Vampire Cockroach]

330 ohm 10 w will fit in the SAI pump plug but the resistor is too big for both the n249 and n112 harnesses. I believe the wattage is different for those harnesses as well.

My setup now: no SAI pump, but running the n112 and n249 with all lines capped. 330 ohm 10w resistor in the SAI pump harness.

IIRC for the actual n112 you need a smaller size resistor, something like a 2w. At least thats what I found on whoretex a while back.

Are you trying to take everything out? Or just the SAI pump and combi valve?

[zooyork155]

Put me down for whatever you're getting, Kevin.

[buttersgolf]

gonna be difficult to pass inspections and set readiness codes with out the sai pump.

[dekroon]

gonna be difficult to pass inspections and set readiness codes with out the sai pump.

that's what the resistors are for. Readiness codes are'nt too much of a problem..

[buttersgolf]

never really discussed this kind of mod before.

[dekroon]

The resistors help fool the ecu to think the SAI & n112 are still functioning. Although it might trigger a silent or intermitten dtc, with the resistors & some hard settings with vag-com it should be able to set the readiness codes enough to pass. Or we can get a software vendor to hardcode them on.

[Vampire Cockroach]

yeah my readiness codes always failed for secondary air, but i had no CEL's until a fuse was blown.

I don't know if that was my fault by choosing low wattage resistors for the n112 and n249 or if it was just the fact that i had resistors in there. I'm about to experiment some more (away from the car... lol)

[Vampire Cockroach]

which resistors are you getting to replace the n112 and n249? I'll take those, but I don't need any for the SAI pump harness

[Yareka]

I'll check again today as to whats needed...I had it all written down a piece of paper that dissapeared...thats why I havent ordered them.

[Yareka]

I ordered 10-330ohm 10w resistors today from moyer electronics. They are coming from Pa so they might be here by friday:)

[Yareka]

they didnt have them in stock, so a slight delay on that one. And apparenty the ones I ordered work in the sai socket but not in the n112 or n249:mad: . I'm going to try them anyways..dammit.

I also read something weird where when you first install them, you have to let the car go through a full warmup cycle before driving to keep the CEL off. And if you lose power to the ecu(unplug battery) you have to do that warmup cycle again. I'm determined to get these to work and then its on to the evap.

Gerich...what was that website again about how many readiness have to pass for which years?

[Vampire Cockroach]

And apparenty the ones I ordered work in the sai socket but not in the n112 or n249

The service manual says that the n112 needs to see 20-24 ohms. Doesnt say anything about the n249 but I would assume its probably about the same.


Not sure of the wattage...

[Yareka]

30ohm is what I heard for those. I'll give the other ones a try first...I have enough of them coming for all of ncdubs:eek:

higher wattage just keeps them from burning out from being tripped over and over. Like the n249 gets tripped everytime you get in and out of boost.

[Bacon]

I could still see you getting a dtc. It will still think they are connected but when it looks to see if they function you will prob get a dtc for Secondary Air Flow Insufficient Flow. If you dont that would be quite interesting.

[Yareka]

Your right...we should see a dtc but apparently readiness will pass and the cel will stay off, which is what we are shooting for in doing this.

[Bacon]

if you can get readiness to pass then thats all you need other than no mil lamp. Though you can get away with one not ready for a 2001 and newer vehicle. If you can get it to pas then what ive been trained is wrong or youve found a loop hole.

[sflemon]

Is this something I should look into? If so, how much for the resistors.

[Bacon]

You have confirmed readiness setting on Group 86?

[Yareka]

its not really a loop hole..you are just showing the ecu a reading that it is looking for so it says "cool". Ideally, we get revo to just put all the readiness codes to pass like they have done with the rear o2, but I cant rely on them to do that before my next inspection in march. There are people out there tuning on me7 that can turn all the readiness codes to pass and say that you can do it with vag, but the secret is hushhush.

[Bacon]

I understand fooling the ecu. I just think of it as a guy in a box. He doesnt know whats going on. He just knows what people tell him and he determines what to do based on what hes told, not necessarily what is actually going on. Youre just lying to the guy in the box. I just know of things that "the Guy in the box" is supposedly looking for and how you are lying to him about it. Unless you are just telling him "dont worry about that, just ignore that". I assume that is what is going on, programming the ecu to ignore things or not to look for them. I am interested both as a tech and being able to modify things without a MIL or DTCs.

[Yareka]

The guy in the box:D your giving motronic way too much credit...awesome analogy though.

In all seriousness...From a tech point of view, Im very interested in what you have to say about this. And in a way, I'm that guy in the box too. I dont have the total explanation for you since I'm far from an automotive engineer or an electrician. I am simply trying to get the ecu to ignore the fact that its emissions controls have been taken away. In no way would I do this to take away engine controls that affect performance by trickery(diode on the map or iat) because I dont wholely understand the consequences.

I would say that we arent telling him to just ignore it since it would throw a dtc for that. We are giving him a value(in ohms) that it would normally be looking for in normal operation so it thinks everything is golden.

[Vampire Cockroach]

Is this something I should look into?

Depends. Only reason I did it was bc it made my engine pretty and clean(er). If you think you will have to put all the sensors, combi valve, and hosing back in, I say forget it... its more trouble than its worth in that case.

[gerich]

Depending on the component most sensors are given reference voltage(for Fords it's 5V) and the resistance of sensor is based on the position of that component which affects the reading that is sent back to the ecu. As long as the reading is within range for "normal operation" the ecu(guy in the box) is happy. The resistor trick is just a way to manipulate the reference voltage so the desired voltage reading is returned to the ecu. One of the first ways this was used that I know of was to eliminate the rear O2 sensor by making it read .7V to simulate a properly functioning catalytic converter.

[Ak-Abe]

Depending on the component most sensors are given reference voltage(for Fords it's 5V) and the resistance of sensor is based on the position of that component which affects the reading that is sent back to the ecu. As long as the reading is within range for "normal operation" the ecu(guy in the box) is happy. The resistor trick is just a way to manipulate the reference voltage so the desired voltage reading is returned to the ecu. One of the first ways this was used that I know of was to eliminate the rear O2 sensor by making it read .7V to simulate a properly functioning catalytic converter.
didin't i explain that to you last time i saw you .:D

[Yareka]

Resistors came in today...and they will go on tomorrow.

[Ak-Abe]

Resistors came in today...and they will go on tomorrow.
Nice keep us posted.:oddeye-hellyeah:

[Yareka]

wired up the sai pump plug earlier this week and it didnt do a damn thing. Wired in the n112 and n249 today and it has gone through two crank cycles...no dtc, no CEL, and I have adaptation. time will tell

nice thing is that plugging in the n112 didnt give the crazy idle that it had before...oh yeah.

[Vampire Cockroach]

over time the resistors will cut out warm-up mode altogether

I won't be able to get the 27 ohm ones on my car til thanksgiving... sucks

[Yareka]

Drove about 30 miles today with three different trips. Still no cel but secondary air and evap still havent passed readiness. I am getting a secondary air: incorrect flow dtc stored. I'm thinking evap takes a while to work so when that passes, I'll be fine with just one readiness not passing. I would love to see none.

Its wired in pretty messy right now. I need to redo the one going to the sai because it looks like one end fell out, that may have something to do with the incorrect flow code. If it works I'll solder in the ends and put both resistors in an sealed box of some sort to keep out moisture.

[Yareka]

Ian...what are your fuel trims on the big injectors?

Not really surprised but the ecu has already pulled max fuel out = 25% in pt adaptation.

[a4wdhybrid]

-25%

[Yareka]

cool...thats what I figured.

Just checking myself: Adaptation only affects idle and pt...not wot, right?

[Vampire Cockroach]

with the sai you can run the plug with no resistor in at all and you won't throw a code...

when i was running the lower-wattage resistors earlier i got the same code, i think its just bc you aren't giving the n112 sensor any real "numbers"... that's probably also the reason why your readiness isnt passing. Since the resistor is in there, it detects a controller... but that controller wants to see air flow numbers. Hence the p0411 code

Just throwing a few ideas out there

[Yareka]

if thats the only one that doesnt pass...and it doesnt throw a dtc, then we should be good to go. I was hoping to jump on to other things like the evap system, theres way too many vacuum lines and pumps all the way down the passenger side that could fail.

[Yareka]

with the sai you can run the plug with no resistor in at all and you won't throw a code...

guess we should go ahead and pull the fuse on the battery distribution block to kill power to the plug then.

[Vampire Cockroach]

guess we should go ahead and pull the fuse on the battery distribution block to kill power to the plug then.

yeah, might as well... it seems like the plug to the actual SAI pump is just for power and nothing else... like it turns the power on only when it gets signal from the n112

I've got the resistor in there and dont feel like doing the little bit of extra work to pull the fuse and take out the resistor, but I'm sure if you pulled the resistor and the fuse on top the battery you'd get the same effect

[Ak-Abe]

yeah, might as well... it seems like the plug to the actual SAI pump is just for power and nothing else... like it turns the power on only when it gets signal from the n112

I've got the resistor in there and dont feel like doing the little bit of extra work to pull the fuse and take out the resistor, but I'm sure if you pulled the resistor and the fuse on top the battery you'd get the same effect
now wait what's the deal here .. :)

[a4wdhybrid]

i havent pulled any fuses...sai plug has been useless for 1.5yrs...no code

[Ak-Abe]

i havent pulled any fuses...sai plug has been useless for 1.5yrs...no code
so what you trying to say is that we can shut off the SAI by pulling a fuse out .. ?:)

[Yareka]

abe..the reason for pulling the fuse is so that you dont have a hot open electrical connection in the engine bay where you have moisture and crap flying everywhere.

I have to rethink the resistors. My car adapted in the last few days and it really ran like crap today. Stalled out every time I let off the gas after letting it warm up. I talked to Edsgti off vortex, he has done a lot of revo bt setups and has not seen the same symptoms we have on the n112. Might have to try erics resistors.

Way it stands right now, I'd throw these in to pass emissions and then pull them out. But I'd also need to do a little better job at pulling primary fuel in lemmiwinks because I'm getting less than 18mpg without the adaptation.

[Vampire Cockroach]

Might have to try erics resistors.

When i was using the 1w 27 ohm ones i had none of the problems you mentioned. I think the 27 ohm number is correct, the only reason i had problems was bc my wattage was too low

wait 2 more weeks till thanksgiving break, my new magical resistors are coming in and i will be testing then.

[kcfoxie]

Ok, just so I'm clear... how do you check the readiness codes? How are these different from the DCT codes I pull with the VAG?

I ask because, while I want to do this as well, I keep getting a performance below threshold: intermitent DCT every so often post-new exhaust being installed (probably detecting the leak since we didn't use a rubber gasket before clamping the two parts together -- I know, I know, get it welded...) ... my inspection isn't for some time, but I just want to know so I can work on resolving any issues before I have to get the car thru inspection.

Thanks :)

[a4wdhybrid]

readiness is under engine

its the one that says "readiness" :gt-bb-chongin:

[kcfoxie]

huh.. i never noticed it (or cared to notice it) before. I'll have to do some playing.

[Vampire Cockroach]

Update: I threw in the 10w 27 ohm resistors in today and cleared the p0411 code. I will keep everyone updated over the course of the week whether the CEL comes back on or not.

BTW i have an extra pair of these resistors and one extra 10w 330 ohm if anyone is interested... this is enough to remove the n112 and n249 on one person's car

[Yareka]

dibs.....the 330ohm didnt do it for me as far as readiness. The cel never came on but I want to get rid of the incorrect flow... I'll give it a shot and report back since my wires are already hacked up for the resistor.

Dont forget to check readiness after a couple of days for us.

[Vampire Cockroach]

yeah i had been getting the incorrect flow code even with the n112 and n249 plugged in but out of loop vacuum wise... and of course it was popping up the cel as well

I'm guessing that no matter what, the p0411 code is going to be stored, since the n249 is going to want to see actual air flow #s.

I'll go ahead and solder on some pins and heat shrink the resistors for you so you can do it the right way ;) Just look at it as an x-mas present from yours truly :D



Random thought:

Now that i think about it, the 27 ohm number may be what the ecu likes to see as an ideal value, and thus thinks air is flowing through the valve. That could explain why your readiness isnt setting and you are getting a stored code.

Ian- dont you have all this stuff removed? Somehow i remember you having it all taken out and running dtc-less

[Yareka]

Just yell before you drop it down the chimney, those things are small:D

I'm hoping you are right about that 27ohm reading as well, cel never popped up for me but the readiness never passed which is important...but hopefully it will now.

[Vampire Cockroach]

Just yell before you drop it down the chimney, those things are small:D

I'm sure you hear that from Nic all the time :laff:

day 2 of driving and no CEL... didnt drive but 2 miles or so though.

[Vampire Cockroach]

update:

Readiness is not passing for both secondary air and evap... don't know why the evap is not passing; I'm not getting any evap codes. I guess the two are on the same circuit or something.

Threw my car into limp mode twice over the past week, which has never happened before with the N75J... don't know if that is related to the higher boost I am seeing or from the n112 being resistor-ed.

Anyway, Kevin I have two resistors with me here in Chapel Hill... sounds like they are doing the same exact thing as your 330's so it's probably not even worth the trip. PM me if you still want them...


Despite the readiness issues, it's great to finally be CEL-free :laff:

[Vampire Cockroach]

well, I give up... all the SAI shit is going back on

I have both the resistors on and my readiness is passing (0000 0000), except I have a CEL. wtf? Basically the opposite of what was going on with Yareka. I have 2 stored codes, the P0411 "incorrect flow detected" code and a "rear O2 sensor: internal resistance too high (intermittent)" code.

At this point I guess I could care less about fiddling around with all of this... I could try the ohmage given in the bentley manual but that requires ordering resistors online again and and I just dont feel like doing that right now

Just thought I would let everyone know

[Yareka]

you may be getting the cel from the rear o2 sensor codes instead of incorrect flow. When does your cel come on....if you pass readiness before this happens then you could get inspected in that time period and you'd only have to do that dance once a year. I was getting the incorrect flow value even when I had the sai in. Anyway, save the resistors and bring them to dyno day...please:)

[Vampire Cockroach]

eh see when i had all the SAI stuff still in that rear O2 code was being thrown... it means that the rear O2 sensor is on its way out, is all

now when i had all the shit in i occasionally saw the P0411 code but it wouldnt trip the cel either... strange

[Yareka]

eh...it was still worth a shot. Still bring them if you gotem.

[evan@absolute]

the key is the code for the rear o2 is for internal resistance. That is the sensor failing. The low flow on the sai is from it not running. You can put all the freakng resistors in there you want but the ecu is watching the mafs reading during the test. That what it looks like to me anyway. I have had the arguement a lot of times but if you generate the readiness code the test for sai shows the mafs reading and it changes when the pump runs. I still don't understand exactly why the mafs reading changes with the way it is plumbed in there but it does.

[Yareka]

Are you saying when you run the readiness test, the maf reading shows up? maf reading would change because its looking for the higher idle? Its looking for that air going through the exhaust valves and its not seeing it so that would be the determining factor. I still say its looking for a reading for the pump because you have the power harness as well as the n112plug, which is the one we are resistering.

[evan@absolute]

I am saying when you run the test it shows the mafs reading as one of the measuring values. When the pump kicks on the value gos up. That is the only way i see it can measure flow. If you have the pump hooked up and running perfectly but the hose is off it sets the code. That would make me think resistors wouldn't do shit for that. If you have a broken vacuum hose for the combi vave it sets that code. Once again no resistor will can fix that Imo.

[a4wdhybrid]

when my car starts cold it has the higher idle for the first 30 secs or so

no pump, no n112, no resistors

ive never had a sec air code even w/ the maf plugged in

until i got my fuel trims part way under control and away from -25%...then the code showed up

has to be some sort of connection

[Yareka]

ok evan..gotcha. fark...wonder why so many people have gotten it to work with a resistor then.

[evan@absolute]

ok evan..gotcha. fark...wonder why so many people have gotten it to work with a resistor then.
have they really or do they just say they have? think about that. If they had gotten it to work then you guys wouldn't be trying to figure out which ones to put in now would you? Maybe just maybe they are full of shit????????

Ian your fuel trim thing makes my head hurt. But i will ponder it none the less.

[Yareka]

no way dude, its true...I read it on the internet:gt-ogb-spank:

[evan@absolute]

don't you mean internets?

[Yareka]

intranets...sowwy:gt-bb-chongin:

[Vampire Cockroach]

oh well... back to the noisy sai pump. I think I'm just goign to run a new vacuum line from the combi valve since I have the dv bypassed and everything already... and not mess with all those hard lines

should be pretty clean but not as clean as it is now. oh well, it was worth a try