3 1.8t-ish inquiries

[thom337]

#1 Most basic question first I suppose. I've read about people adjusting the wastegate nut on the actuator rod (I know its a mistake to use the words nut and rod in the same sentance here), but I've always been afraid to mess w/ it. If they are getting more boost, does that mean under WOT, my wastegate is still open some? (by open I mean, the rod is opening the little hole on the hotside and bypassing the impeller deal) I've read the efficiency range of K03's only goes to about 20-ish PSI, but what about the K03sport?

#2 I'm thinking of going water-meth over winter break. Those of you who have already or are considering doing the same, are you going w/ the boost dependent setup? Also, what brand...the two I've looked at are from Snow and Boost Factory, and they look fairly similar. Also, how do the timing values for Revo correspond to degrees of timing? If I turn up my timing setting and say something screws up w/ my meth setup, will the engine detect knock/pre-det immediately and pull timing? What HP could I expect? I remember Rob (i think thats his name) did 237 on dyno day w/ stage 1 software. If I'm running stage II, is that gonna get me up higher or will I be fairly close to those numbers?

#3 Bigger MAF? If I have my facts straight, w/ Stage II I am probably running fairly rich. Is it possible to get a bigger MAF to pick up the AFR w/o the danger of running to lean and effin something up? I guess in a way I'd be lying to my engine, I'm guessing it measures the temp and velocity of incoming air, and uses the known volume inside of the MAF to calculate how many grams of O2 are coming it, so it'd be thinking there was less air than there is.

My #1 concern w/ all of this is : I don't wanna blow up/bend/melt/otherwise cause harm to my crap.

I'm going to class, when I return I expect detailed responses to all my questions. :yum:
Learn me bout this stuff. :upyeah:

[zooyork155]

I can shed a bit of light on #2 for you.

Any power gained from water injection (hereafter referred to as W/I) will come from either increasing boost or increasing timing. Ultimately what you're dealing with is controlling in-cylinder conditions. The water or water/methanol mixture will prevent detonation (primary benefit) and cool both the intake charge and the cylinders (secondary benefit).

Most of the people seeing large HP gains with W/I are running at least a 1:1 mix of water and methanol and increase their overall timing advance 10+ degrees. This isn't something I would reccommend without integrated failsafes that can limit the timing advance if something were to fail in the W/I system (clogged nozzle, out of fluid, leaks, etc.) especailly for a daily driven car.

Without getting too technical about the tuning, get a stage 2 setup from evan using the MAP controller. Start with a nozzle that would allow you to flow ~10-15% of the water/meth mix (1:1 ratio or lower) per total flow of fuel (for the 1.8T with stock injectors you want ~250cc/min) and inject the mix as close to the throttle body as possible. Yareka's spacer would be ideal (I know I want one!). Set your timing to 5 per REVO. If you're using an N75 you'd want the W/I to begin at ~13-15psi and end ~10psi.

Keep in mind this is merely a jump off point. You're individual setup/settings may be different but that's where I'd start.

[Vampire Cockroach]

1. The efficiency range of the ko3s is about the same. You can push more psi but it's not really going to do anything. As for the wastegate rod, you should only tune that if you know what you are doing... i'm guessing with revo, 3" dp and front mount you really don't need to touch it though. Another thing that I've heard is that adjusting the rod wont necessarily increase your boost but you can make it change your boost characteristics, i.e. onset and holding

2. Boost dependent would be a good idea bc when you get into higher numbers thats when the car begins to lean out. The engine has knock sensors that you can watch in vag-com... its ok to knock a few times but you certainly dont want to ride on those sensors. HP numbers are really objective. There isn't any real good documentation as to what meth can actually do on a 1.8t, but I know meth has been used to obtain some very good numbers on other cars. The importance is more in the tuning of the kit; you cant just slap it on there and think its going to be perfect.

3. I think Revo runs decently rich anyway, and with the 4 bar fpr you should be fine in the fueling department... if you add meth I would certainly say its ok to go with a bigger maf. I've heard not to use the 3" unless your bt though... try the BAMM from steve schwing. Also iirc mr. blue motorcycle didn't really see any gains from using a bigger maf on a stage 2. He did say that stage 1 really benefited from it though.

Worse comes to worse, buy the BAMM, give it a try, and if you don't like it sell it to me :grineyes:

[sflemon]

Vortex fodder: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2878911

He is running:

258whp, 322wtq, supposedly, haven't clicked on his link yet, this is on a K03s, and IMHO a K03s is a reasonable improvement over the K03. It does flow more, if a hairdryer flows much to begin with anyway

His mods:
GIAC X+
4.3v diode
CAI
Samco hose
custom fmic
powergasket plus
ngk bkr7e plugs
water/methanol injection with nitro methane
100 octane
3in exhaust
cranked wg
lemmiwinks tuning
pulleys
relocated dv
4bar fpr

[Vampire Cockroach]

At h2o, we hit 225whp and 270wtq with no water methanol


so water meth and race gas is his secret. There ya go Thom, good evidence as to why you should get meth

[dekroon]

I've yet to dyno on race gas:D

The BAMM worked out nicely on a stage 1 (3bar) file. When you add the BAMM (larger maf housing than stock) you need to add a 4bar fpr to compensate the fuel trim being lean per the larger maf.

On the Stage 2 4bar setup, the BAMM went lean and out of adaption specs. With larger injectors or an adjustable fpr the BAMM and stage 2 could be used.

[thom337]

What about a TT3.2 MAF? I'm not sure what the size is, but if I went a bit smaller than the BAMM would I still need to up my fueling? Also, anyone know more about the wastegate rod? I'm trying to getas much as I can out of the ole k03s, I'd be happy w/ around 250, so then I could move on to suspension stuff and a few asthetics (molded front and rear valence, spacers, and a boser). A GT series turbo is coming at some point, but it might be a bit farther down the road...

[zooyork155]

If you're going to switch out the turbo anyway, just leave the MAF and wastegate alone.

[thom337]

This is going to be in a very long time. At least a year, maybe a year and a half.

[zooyork155]

This is going to be in a very long time. At least a year, maybe a year and a half.
Seriously, the maf and the wastegate won't net you much difference either way on the k03s.

[thom337]

But I wanna play daddy.

[Vampire Cockroach]

Seriously, the maf and the wastegate won't net you much difference either way on the k03s.

yeah maybe like 2-5 hp.

Travis: do you think that since GIAC doesnt have 4 bar software that I'd be ok running a 4 bar fpr and the BAMM? Or should I get that adjustable fpr just in case?

I'll check my fuel trims when i get home but last I checked my car was running perfectly

[dekroon]

yeah maybe like 2-5 hp.

Travis: do you think that since GIAC doesnt have 4 bar software that I'd be ok running a 4 bar fpr and the BAMM? Or should I get that adjustable fpr just in case?

I'll check my fuel trims when i get home but last I checked my car was running perfectly

I think you would be fine with the 4bar and the MAF. I also think gains can be had by tweaking the wastegate rod.

[evan@absolute]

I will know more soon but from my quick street tune on my car Saturday after installing the snow perf kit on my S4. I am running the GIAC 100 oct race program with timing bumped 1.5 degrees and -12% primary fuel and am pulling less timing then I was on 100 oct. I am running a lot of h20/meth. I would say it's faster but have not tuned it on the dyno yet. Snow performance suggests a lot more volum then auqamist from what I have read. I am shooting for about 25% h20/meth to 75% fuel. I think i am running a little more meth then that right now at full boost but don't know yet. I think tuning for max power is a little risky since you will be past the "safe" range if the meth fails. But wtf I like to go fast. :oddeye-hellyeah:

[Yareka]

25%:eek: ....which psi do you have the pump come on...and when do have full blast?

from looking at aquamists injectors, I'm running about 7% right now and that may be the problem. I'm sure that not running the progressive controller keeps me from running that much mixture just yet. But I'd still rather run two smaller nozzles than one big one to get my 20% that I'll probably shoot for.

What size lines do the snow kits use from the pump to the nozzle?....4mm maybe:)

[evan@absolute]

actually the id is close to 4mm I guess. I thought it was bigger since it says 1/4" od .040 wall thickness. I just measured though and it is close to 4mm id. I'm running 1) 625cc/min and 1)375cc/min injectors. They are rated at 60psi and I have turned the pump down from 150 to around 100psi. That in therory is around 1150cc/min. For 600 hp I need somewhere around 1050-1100 to be at 25%. They have the rough numbers on the snow website if you go into the stage2 boost cooler and look at the instalation instructions. But yea 7% is for wussies I say. I did have some misfires at the full 150psi during 4th gear roll on.

[thom337]

Meh....can someone give me some specifics on wastegate adjustments? Also, if I were to find a cheap adjustable FPR, could my stock injectors do a good job w/ a TT3.2 MAF?

[Vampire Cockroach]

dont try to fuck with the wastegate adjustment... it wont do too much

your injectors would do alright to a certain point... the adjustable fpr wouldnt go too far on stock injectors though

get some mid-range injectors and run the 3.2 maf and then you could bump up that fueling pretty well

[thom337]

I'm tryin to hold off on the injectors, cause I'm gonna need some eventually anyways when I go BT. (probably winter 07 :-( ) Does anyone know what the max fuel pressure the stockers can take? I'm trying to figure out what CC i would run if I bumped it up...

AWD, 317.46cc/min@45psi, 369cc/min@60psi (I know I'm AWP, but I couldn't find data for the AWP injectors)

So lets see, if x is pressue and y is volume:
(369-317.46)/(60-40) = 2.577
(y-369) = 2.577 (x-60)
y = 2.577x + 214.38

So, Volume = (2.577 * Pressure) + 214.38 assuming that the relationship is linear...which I doubt it is, but I'm just guestimating here.
So if I went up to 5 bars which is 72.5 psi, that'd be 401.21 CC's...which I'm guessing the stock injectors wouldn't do considering people are always buying 400cc injectors...perhaps something more modest along the lines of 4.5 bar which would get 382.65CC. But I guess first I need to check and see what the max the stock injectors can handle is before I go doing all of this. If anyone knows what that might be, info would be much appreciated.

edit: I just remembered from good ole chem that pressure and volume are inversley proportional....so in theory when pressure increases, volume deceases. If this is the case why is the volume from the above data at 60psi higher than at 40psi....doesn't make much sense.

another edit: One possibility is that the injector pulse width is being held constant, so in that case the volume should increase as pressure increases. Usually, a change in pressure results from the volume being decreased (ex. finger over garden hose decreases volume but increases pressure...now imagine increasing the pressure in the hose w/o putting your finger over it, so same opening width, but more pressure....should be more volume)

[Vampire Cockroach]

damn... you are at another level than me... disregard my last post haha

[thom337]

Nah, I think it has more to do w/ the fact that I'm rambling at 4am than this actually being over your head ha. Why are you up so late? Studying? Thats what I'm up to unfortunately...though I'm spending most of my time on here and Vortex.

[Vampire Cockroach]

nah im up partying... thats probably why both of my last posts sound like bs lol... dont worry about them, im sure your posts have so much more info than mine. You actually corroborate yours with math, mine are merely guesses as to what might work on your car

I need to get a life :gt-bb-chongin:

[thom337]

Ah, I must say I'm jealous. If you're guessing that makes two of us ha. I'm not really sure if any of that math I did actually holds up...perhaps in the morning the people who don't stay up till 4:30 will shed some light.

[zooyork155]

You're talking about pressure/volume in a vacuum, not flow rates. Higher pressure to your injectors will flow more volume.

[sflemon]

Max FPR setting is:

FPR in bar + boost pressure in bar < 6 bar

example:

FPR = 4 bar
boost pressure = 21 psi = 1.45 bar

4 bar + 1.45 bar = 5.45 bar < 6.0 bar

I can't recall where I saw this, but I was looking at adjustable FPR's one time and came across it.

[pinky]

yeah.. pressure/volume inverse proportional rule is for static volume of a compressible fluid under pressure.

flow rates are way different..

sqrt(Pressure_new/Pressure_old) * Flow_old = Flow_new

http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm

[pinky]

also, the max pressure may not be controlled by the injectors.. you may reach the limits of the pump first... dont know for sure, tho..

[sflemon]

Bernoulli is your friend:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/2/c/82cf4ee7e0214e063ea7d24787380f8a.png

after that, flow rate is : Q = V*A = velocity * area = m^3/sec or ft^3/sec

[Vampire Cockroach]

fuckin engineers

[pinky]

fuckin butt-pirates

[sflemon]

fuckin butt-pirates

From the sounds of it last night you might be starting your "butt-pirate" training very soon.:p

That is if you can handle it!:gt-ogb-spank: :gt-ogb-spank: :gt-ogb-spank:

[pinky]

i really have no idea what you're talking about..

but chris did say his friend thought you were cute...

[thom337]

Ah yes...thanks for shedding some light on the subject, I havn't had fluid dynamics yet....I think thats next semester.